Miss Anne Morris

[The Interviewer is Miss Veronica Whymant (VW) who is digitally recording Miss Anne Morris (AM) for the Madras Archive. The interview was made on 28th March 2024. The recording was transcribed by Veronica Whymant.]

[Any words in an italicised format means that stress has been placed onto the word.]

[Start of Recording]

VW: Anne, would you like to tell me, first of all, your earliest memories of growing up in St. Andrews?

AM: Yes, well, I grew up down near the harbour, in fact, on the harbour, really! On the Kinnessburn and so my earliest memories of pre-school years were that was my playground. It was a wonderful, natural playground, although I nearly drowned twice. I decided to step out of a rowing boat because my neighbour had actually gone in to get some biscuits or something and I thought I was drifting out into the middle of the burn so I actually stepped out of the boat and it was a chap who was in the yard opposite who managed to save me but that's another story. And then I slipped on the edge of the harbour which I had been told never to walk along and I slipped but I was caught by one of the iron bars, and thank goodness for that, which held the ropes. Otherwise I think I would have been in again.

And I can remember the storms down at the harbour, at the bay.  St Andrews Bay is renowned of course, a storm can whip up a storm in a minute. Opposite Balfour Place was a stables, the riding stables, it was Milne’s Riding Stables and they were in a very ramshackle building which had been in the past a woodyard, it had been where they made the cement bricks for the new council housing, social housing in the town. So the chap Milne had taken over as a stables. When a storm was coming we always knew when there was going to be a storm because the horses actually kicked against their wooden stalls! The noise was horrendous but, of course, we then knew to shut [Chuckling] all our windows. Isn’t it strange that animals know …

VW: Hmm! It’s a really good warning, yes. They are so sensitive.

AM: Yes, and the seagulls as well. That was another thing – the seagulls. Yes, so all these memories of the seagulls and the fish. I used to fish out of the kitchen window until my parents stopped that, and I remember once my father coming in and I was fishing, and he said, “Are you fishing?!” and I said, “No! No!” and I’d pulled the line in, and the actual hook got caught in my thumb, so it was awful, and my father had to, poor soul, take this hook out of my thumb!! [Laughing] But, oh no, it was great fun!

 I loved my parents dearly and they gave me a tremendous upbringing! I mean, my pre-school years were wonderful because they were both great readers and at night, we played lots of word games, so they gave me a great interest in learning and finding out things. We went on picnics, and we went on walks along the Kinkell Braes. Every Sunday, we went to visit my grandparents. Had Sunday lunch with them! All this kind of thing.

VW: Where did they live?

AM: They lived on a farm outside St. Andrews called Kinkell Farm and it’s now, of course, the Castle Course. And so, [Laughing] and so it wasn’t far and we used to just go up there and it was lovely! And my grandfather, I loved dearly, so I really had very pleasant pre-school years. And, as I said, I was introduced to books quite early.  My mother taught me to knit, what was it, in over through out, I can still remember it, the instructions. 

So, I was very keen and they made it a joy to think about school! You know, they kept saying, “You’re going to love school!” The choice of schools at the time, I think there was the East Infants which is also known as the Fisher School, and the Madras Kinder. My parents had decided that they would like me to go to the Madras Kinder because they just thought that was the place for me. And I loved it!

VW: Were the local schools free education?

AM: No. The Madras Kinder was fee-paying but not a large fee but it was a fee paying part of the educational system. And I think it would be subsidised, you know, by the educational authority, it wouldn't be Fife Council, in those days of course, what was it East Fife or North Fife, I mean it's changed so often hasn't it. It certainly was not an exorbitant amount but it was fee paying. And again my brother went, my brother of course is ten years younger than I am, and he also went to the Kinder and by that time, was it still fee paying, I don't think so, but what happened was they had an entrance exam.

VW: For these little tots?

AM: [Laughing] Yes, for these little tots.

VW: Goodness me

AM: You know. Can you imagine little tots having to go through that?  It's amazing because in those days there was still in fact, was it the West Infants by then? But anyhow they had this little thing that they had to sit to see that they were literate and all this kind of thing, quite strange isn't it? So I mean it's more that more leans towards private education.  But anyhow, that was that.

VW: Do you remember your first day at school?

AM: My first day – well, I remember being very excited and my father in those days had a bicycle with a little seat on the bar of his bike and I got to sit on that, and it was lovely because he had his arms around me. I can remember that. And he took me up. There wasn’t terribly much fuss. I mean, nowadays, I think, parents take their child, don’t they, to the first day and stand with them but I mean, it had been talked through so much. I've got the feeling actually, if I remember rightly, I think we had an introductory visit.

VW: Right.

AM: In fact I think we had a couple of introductory visits before actually going on the first day, so it wasn’t, sort of, raw and worrying. I mean, I couldn’t wait!! [Laughs] And, of course, I already knew one or two of the children. Remember, St. Andrews was not a large place and it’s very easy to get around and the things like Sunday School, and also, sort of, activities on the beach, pre-school people would be on the beach. Marjory Dickens, these kind of people, these kind of friends. So, I had some friends before I even went to school. So not having been at a nursery, the town was like a nursery. And actually in those days I think the student population was about 1200.

VW: So what era are we talking about?

AM: This would be 1947, and so there would about 1000, 1200, so in many ways you could almost recognise the students. You know it was strange, you could certainly recognise all the locals. And so it was very obvious when someone came into the town. And that was almost a security thing as well, we were all very safe because we knew who people were and that kind of thing. 

[Break in recording, interrupted by phone call]

VW: And so, what was the catchment area for Madras? So, when you went in to the Kinder, was it just local St. Andreans ?

AM: As far as I recall, yes. Perhaps places like Kemback, Strathkinness, you know, that sort of immediate area but when we went to the secondary, we took in Tayport, Newport etc. but prior to that, no, and even Kinneuchar, these kind of places no, I think they had their own little schools so it was really very much of the town. The only thing I would say was that perhaps now, I may be getting my primary and secondary mixed up, but towards the end of the primary I think we had some children from Leuchars, you know their parents were at Leuchars and their fathers were say in the Air Force and then they came into the school.  I think I may be getting mixed up, the primary certainly was to all my recollections local people, local children. So then that meant that our school life and after school life was very much we were with the same people and we got to know them very, very well. And I still am so friendly with many of them. You made lifelong friends really, which is lovely, even though we all went away and maybe come back.

So it was a very, very secure and safe childhood, and quite a good sort of basic approach to life if you like in that in we were taught to be compassionate you know, fair-minded and all this kind of thing which I think is important, very important. I can't remember any of this business of bullying now, there must have been, I mean I'm silly to say there was no bullying but I can't recall any and there was certainly name calling probably.

VW: Goes with the days really.

AM: Yes, but there were lots of playground games and they were seasonal. We had skipping, we had conkers, we had hopscotch, we called it paldies, all that sort of thing and I don't know how we knew when to change, when you took in your skipping ropes and you took in your ball games, isn't it funny?

VW: So why would they have been seasonal?

AM: I have no idea. It was just that was how it happened. You knew when it was time to bring in the skipping ropes, you knew when it was time to do this. Isn't that strange? And then we had various sort of word games I remember, we made up little sort of paper things, you played with these and the words, it told you your future, very strange little things. But we had great fun in the playground.

VW: Did you get two play sessions? One in the morning and one on the afternoon or just one in the morning?

AM: No, I just recall the one in the morning and, of course, in those days, there was no way that the children left the school grounds. I mean, even when you got into the secondary, there was no way that you left the school grounds. Actually that's all changed, I believe, I mean, you can see the children now, the pupils are used to be leaving school at break time and at lunchtime.  And so that there were also strange things, there was the play area and in those days there were still the remains of an old air raid shelter, and this was a brick one. And it was quite a large one so if it was raining we could go in there or we could go into Blackfriars Chapel because the ruins of Blackfriars Chapel weren't sealed off at that time so we could go in there, dance about and play about. And it was great fun really. I seem to remember that playtime was long but it probably was not.

VW: I was just going to ask you, what were the school hours?

AM: Yes, well, we were nine till four but not in the primary. I think we were nine till three. And we had an hour for lunch. And of course, in those days, you went home for lunch, except for perhaps those who had travelled in. No, I think in the primary most of us went home for lunch. I can't remember ever having any, although did some people have to go to the dinner, there was a dinner hut at the back where the extension of the old Madras building, the quad came, there were down there some dining huts. On one occasion there must have been people travelling in from somewhere else because on one occasion I said to my mother and father, "I want to go for lunch", what happened was that you bought lunchtime tickets and these were at the beginning of the week people who were going for their lunch bought these tickets. And my mother said "I don't think you'll like it" and I said "Oh I would love it, I want to go to lunch and then they get to play" because there was a bank going down at the back of the school and we can carry on with all the games. So eventually my mother said "Well, all right, if you want to go, why don't we ...".  They were horrendous! It was pink mince and sort of runny custard and everything so after the first day I though "Oh No!"

VW: Sounds like [indistinct] going back for lunch to home.

AM:  My father was a technician as I said before and one of the technicians in one of other departments was a Michael Sweeney and his wife Susan Sweeney was on the lunchtime duties, serving the lunches and she immediately reported me to the Rector, I wasn't eating the lunch. So that didn't last long, in fact I don't think I lasted the week, I think I did go home. And of course we cycled home, back and forth. It was wonderful.

But as I said, my mother was a wonderful cook – not that I acquired her skills – but she was a very good cook. And, of course, mothers were at home. I mean, mothers didn’t work, you know and, in fact, any time I did go (if she was at the dentist or something and I went home and she wasn’t there), and, of course, doors were left open back then. Not left open but unlocked! That was another very strange thing that I don’t think anyone would have thought of, locking their door. You know, I mean, it’s, it’s very different, isn’t it? 

VW: Hmm. Everything has changed! And what about a uniform – did you wear a uniform?

AM: Yes. Navy blue and white and a school badge. “Pro Rege et Grege”. And I’ve always said “For King and Country”, but I was corrected recently that it’s “For King and People”. And so, it was for King in those days, of course. It became Queen after, but for King and People, Country as I said. And then the badge to me, again, as a young child – and I’ve always had a sort of visual sense to see things in trees and I see things in clouds and all this kind of thing and the badge has always looked to me like a bloodhound. It’s like a [Chuckling] dog’s face and I can’t get that out of my head, you know! And people say, “Oh, that’s rubbish!!” but that’s what I see. And the uniform was very strict uniform. And we had, definitely, gymslips, you know, they’ve gone. Navy blue knickers, you know. White blouses.

VW: Even your knickers had to be school uniform?!!

AM: Yes!! Oh, yes, absolutely!! Absolutely! Incredible. Everything! Everything! I think our vests as well, probably! [Laughing] No, everything was school uniform.

VW: All year round or did you have anything warmer in the winter?

AM: In the winter you had an overcoat and a raincoat, and in the summer – but you wore your blazer in the summer. Definitely. And then of course, moving to the secondary school, Irene Bennett (you know, my friend Irene?), she was Head Girl and also a Prefect and they had white binding, white cotton trims round their blazers.  And their badges, you know, their Prefect badges.

VW: Talking about Irene, you obviously had friends at school, does anybody come to mind in particular?

AM: Yes, well, particular friends were Alison Thompson and then, in the primary school, I was very friendly with Dorothy Murray and with, who else now did I like? Margaret McLees very much and then Irene came to the primary school and then quite a lot of the boys. We had a sort of, mixed gang if you like, I don't like to use the word gang, a mixed group we played after school, at weekends and things like that. Went away along the Kinkell Braes, played down on the beach and on the rocks. At that time, you could wal k, well we used to walk between the pier and the castle, you know, on the rocks. Fascinating there, there are a couple of caves along there, which I don't know if they are still there because there has been quite a lot of erosion in that area. And we used to go out the pier and go out in rowing boats. So, we had a very active primary, active life! Both at school and out of school.

VW: Hmm, outside school.

AM: Yes because of course there was no television, there was no social media. So in other words we would read a lot, we would play card games, not card games but table top games, all this kind of thing. And you would make up games when you were playing outside, you know, you would imagine things. And it was just wonderful. So, there were these mixed groups of children who would go away along the Kinkell Braes, take maybe a wee lunch with you, sandwiches with you and this kind of thing. And then, later on, perhaps cycle up to Boarhills or…

VW: So, were you just free to go anywhere and do anything?

AM: Absolutely. That's the other thing, that our parents were not at all anxious that anything was going to happen to us, as long as you didn't sort of rush out into the road or something, you were taught that. There was no anxiety and we weren't fed any anxiety so we were very comfortable within ourselves. We were warned not to speak to strangers [Chuckles] and we were warned about all these kind of things and we stuck to that but we very seldom met any strangers [Chuckling] and so that really, I would say we had a particularly safe and happy childhood whereas now, I think, it must be quite an anxiety for both parents and children to try to move around freely. I mean, we would go out at the weekends early in the morning and not come back until late afternoon or something. Seeing that there were no mobile phones or anything like that.

VW: Ah ha. So, returning to the actual school classroom and the education, what kind of things do you remember learning there and what teachers, subjects did you have?

AM: Well, in some ways it was quite a formal education but in other ways it was, it was quite structured. You knew that you were going to do English at some time, you were going to do Mathematics at some time, you were going to do Geography, you were going to do Nature Study, you know all of these things ran together and you had a timetable that you stuck to. But there was a certain freedom of movement in that, in the primary everyone was educated together so that you learned together, there was a lot of teaching went on, in other words you had to sit and listen. But then the brighter ones, or the ones who were learning more quickly, often had time to read at the end of a particular lesson. And so, within your desk – we had desks with lids – you would perhaps have a book that you wanted to carry on reading, and it could be something educational, but you know, you would do that. Of course, the streams who were taking maybe a longer time to do something, were given that time. And so, there was a sort of, flexibility by the teacher because she was having to teach a group of, say - I’m trying to think how many would be in a class - seventeen, maybe? Of course, smaller classes were in the Kinder.

VW: Ah, right.

AM: The way out of the Kinder was that say, Primary one and two would be downstairs and there was glass doors that could be drawn across three and four and that kind of thing, six and seven. And so the two were together but were never opened up particularly. But you were aware of what learning was sometimes going on. You made me think about something; we were spoon fed to a certain degree but we were also encouraged to think and debate, not debate but discuss things and to manage information and to problem solve, all these kinds of things they say now but we were encouraged to do that even at an early age. But I remember reading somewhere just recently that D'Arcy Thompson had been asked about his students at the university and he said "You know, I don't mind spoon feeding them. He said, I'm finding them now that really they just expect to be spoon fed he said but I don’t mind spoon feeding them but I do object to moving their jaws". And what else? Oh, yes! One thing now I loved was that we did Art and we had Music and we had people coming in for that.

VW: OK.

AM: So, you would have an Art specialist coming in, you would have a Music specialist coming in, you would have a Drama specialist … so, there was PE. There was a lot of PE, and I think that’s very good for young children, you know, between times when they are learning. And I introduced that to the class I had when I was a young teacher. You know, I taught at Donaldson’s and I had a very young class and I used to get them to run round the maypole [Laughing] ever so often!

VW: OK!

AM: And it would give them that boost, you know.  So we had PE but we also had formal writing. And I remember the writing books, they had two little lines and you had to make sure you went up ...

VW: What were you writing with?

AM: With ink.

VW: And an ink well?

AM: And an ink well, yes. Amazing, honestly.

VW: This was to learn how to write neatly?

AM: How to write neatly, so we literally had script lessons. I think I've still got some of the little books which we did. And then we had to buy, of course, with it being a fee-paying primary, all your books etc. had to be bought by your parents and so, all the jotters and all this kind of thing.

VW: And where were they bought from?

AM: From Henderson’s in town. That was the bookshop in town and, by the way, our uniforms were bought from Cairds which was the local shop. That’s another thing that, of course, has changed so much – the town was full of individual bookshops. I mean, there were so many grocers, there were so many butchers, there were so many fishmongers – all of that sort of thing! So, the retailers were there and quite different! Not so many cafes!! [Laughs]. There was the Victoria Cafe and that kind of thing but not anything like that. It was a treat to go to the Victoria Cafe, it just wasn't there. And there were two cinemas in those days. What else? The difference in the layout of the town is quite notable. It’s remarkable, it’s so changed now.

VW: Talking about the Victoria Cafe that's just reminded me that I think I heard you mention at some point about a bun van? Tell me about that again!

AM: Yes, well, MacArthurs, the baker, they sent a bun van. That was MacArthurs at the West Port, not the MacArthurs at the east side of town.  And Audrey MacArthur, who is now Audrey More and still a member of our FP Girls’ Club, (she was married to Magnus More, who was a Director of Education), so she’s come back to town, and it was her family who had the bakery. So, when she was still a student [Chuckles], she had to help, she's older than I am, she’s ninety now, to drive the van along and it drew up on the grass in front of the school. You know, drove into the school grounds and people queued up, pupils queued up to buy a bun. This was during the morning break. Well, the queues were so big that [Chuckling] sometimes you never got your bun!!! She told the story recently that the bun van, the actual van had broken down, so she had a little Mini so she put all the buns in the back of her Mini and went that day and the Police had said "What's this?". It was really funny, she's a lovely woman.

VW: And was this for all pupils or just secondary?

AM: I can’t remember ever getting a bun when I was in the primary. I think this was the secondary.  And of course the primary, did we have a different break time? Although the secondary pupils, you see, didn’t really go out into the grounds because the secondary pupils walked round the Quad. So, the boys walked one way, they walked in a clockwise direction and the girls walked in an anti-clockwise direction. And you walked round the Quad, it was a very strange habit.

VW: And, what, you just did that for your whole break?

AM: Yep!

VW: Walked round and round and round?

AM: Yes, round and round and chatted away and eyed up whoever you thought was … [Laughing] that was a handsome young man! No, that's what we did. Yes, it was a very strange custom, wasn’t it?! Very strange. And then of course, Oh I've forgotten one thing that's really rather awful, and it was both primary and secondary. We were issued with a third of a pint of milk in little bottles. Now in the winter the janitor, I've jumped to the secondary now, the janitor who was a Mr Smith and the janitor's house was in the grounds by the way in the West Lodge. There was a West Lodge and an East Lodge. The East Lodge was the Principal, the Rector or as we called him, the ‘Beak’ in the East Lodge. And the West Lodge at this time was Charles Anderson who was the Classics Master and Gordon Anderson was in my class at school. And he, they were in that building. But Mr Smith, his building was next to it, his house was next door. And he actually used to put the milk beside the radiators if it was out cold, well it made it, like, ooh!, it was horrible, and it was very thick creamy milk anyway and so it was disgusting. But he also used to be seen taking, he had a nail which he pierced all the tops with and put the straws in. When you think about it, how we survived I don't know.

VW: A dirty nail!

AM: A dirty nail [Laughs]. But no, that was something I had forgotten, in the primary we did get this milk issued, not every day.

VW: Well, I got it when I was at primary in England, that was mid-1980s. And yes, they were little bottles and yes, they froze in the winter so they defrosted them on the heating pipes.

AM: [Laughing] And it was awful, wasn't it? But anyway, that was it. So with the buns for the secondary, I think, did you get a biscuit when you were in the primary? We never had a bun. Of course we were out in all weathers and therefore going up to school there was the actual where we actually put all our wet blazers etc. were downstairs underneath the stairs actually of the building and the smell of damp cloth was just awful. On damp days because it was just awful. And so that got a really kind of musty kind of feel. But the other story about being in the cloak rooms when you were hanging you coats in the cloakroom. In the summer you would hang your blazer in the cloakroom and in those days when I was at primary we still had sweet rations. So post-war we still had these sweet rations. And so you had a ration book and you had sweetie rations and you had little things and if you wanted to buy any sweeties, and my mother would give me so many you could go if you wanted to get sweets. I wasn't allowed to have that many and I had mine in my pocket for my Friday sweets or something and they were pinched! [Laughs]. And I never forgot that!

VW: I thought you were going to say they had gone all soggy and dissipated or something.

AM: No, somebody had pinched them, I couldn't believe it. Good Grief! And that was the first time that I thought, well, people weren't always what you thought they were. It was very strange and that was actually quite a … I remember distinctly thinking, that was just very odd, that somebody should do this.

VW: So, was there a school tuckshop or was this after school that you got your sweets?

AM: No, after school. There was a little sweet shop opposite and it actually served ...  although I wasn't allowed to go into that one I had to go to Dougal's which was down near the house so I would go after I went down home. But the one opposite she, you went down steps, a funny little pokey little place, just about where Farmore is, about there quite near Robertson’s. It was Robertson’s was a wonderful shop, and it was a bit further near the school. And it was just a tiny, little, a tiny, little shop and you went down steps to it, I think, and there was this strange old lady in it, and she had sherbet in a drawer! And she would give you sherbet in a sort of a funnel and then you would pour it onto your palm. And of course I was never allowed to take these kind of ghastly sweets, bubble gum and all this kind of thing. I was told they really weren't good for me and I said no, I won't get that, I'll get something else. And of course [Chuckling] when I did get that when I shouldn’t have, it stained your hand [Laughing] so badly!!

VW: What colour?!

AM: A sort of orangey-yellow!

VW: Telltale sign!!

AM: So, you got this huge stain, can you imagine what it was doing to your insides, you know?!!

VW: Hmm!

AM: But so this was the sherbet. So, oh gosh, and liquorice, sort of liquorice sort of ?? bends she had that very strange sort of sweets, goodness knows where she got them. Unlike Miss Haggart where my father used to get the chocolate for the weekend it always tasted of firelighters because she put them all together. Firelighters and cat!

So the school curriculum in the primary was quite structured but had a certain freedom about it, you know, flexibility about it and we certainly had a lot of artistic pursuits and that was good. Sewing and needlework as well but I was looking at some old magazines, there was a very structured, a very lovely school magazine that was produced every year and lots of photographs and things like that, so I’ve got all of the ones from the primary and secondary. And I was looking at the prize winners, class prizes etc. and I see on two occasions, one I got the sewing and something prize and another one, I got the art prize and another one I was first equal and all these kind of things, so it was interesting just to look back and see all the things! First equal with James Cumming! So, [Chuckling] that was interesting! And he’s another friend, another dear friend, because he and I used to cycle up to school together, and Hamish Burns. So, all of these people I know, and I still know Hamish very, very well. And so that ...

VW: Just going into the secondary school, how did things change there?

AM: You were given a timetable. You know, suddenly you had this timetable and you moved from classroom to classroom whereas in primary, you didn’t. And that was quite exciting. Now, in our first year, the new build had not taken place. It was in our second year that we moved into the extended Madras. You know, where there was the building at the back. And so, when we moved in, in S1, we were still within the Quad and so we had Science labs there, there was Geography, and oh, by the way you got Religious Instruction as well, you know, a school chaplain came in once a week, but he came in. And then there was Music, there was a Music room. Did I mention music in the primary? We had all these Arts and Crafty things. A lot more than I think than they do now, I think they have to choose that don't they? Whereas before that it was part and parcel of the curriculum. But quite rigid timetables because, of course, we were moving around.

Now, there was streaming in those days. So, you had the A stream, which was those who would be taking languages and a much more academic stream, and it was foreseen that they would go on to further education. There was the B stream, which was more technical, and in those days also, there were technical colleges. There were universities and a lot of these technical colleges have now become part of the university. And then there were C stream. And that was people who were perhaps going to go away to do an apprenticeship, they did woodwork, all this kind of thing so they could become carpenters or joiners. It was much more sort of vocational and they actually left school earlier. They would leave in their third year.

VW: How old would they be then?

AM: They would be fifteen. So they would leave at 15 and many of them would go on to do an apprenticeship. So there was that sort of streaming. Now, sometimes, and I feel that this was comprehensive education was really supposed to be based more on a sort of mixture of that kind of streaming and Scottish education, and that was really quite kind of massive as you can't really, well as we show in the primary, you have to have some kind of levels of learning in different subject areas.  Some children are quicker at mathematical skills, acquiring mathematical skills, some more literary skills. And so really to condemn them by the fact that that's the case, it's not right. And, of course, there was the qualifying exam, which meant that even to get into the secondary school, you had to pass this qualifying, which we took at eleven.

VW: So, if you passed the qualifying to get into the secondary school, but then you could still be not bright enough to be on the C stream. 

AM: You could still be streamed, that's exactly right. And then there was still the Burgh school was still going at that time. And that had been the school prior to Madras, actually, at one time. So, some children just remained at the Burgh. They would go from the East Infants or the West Infants to the Burgh and then some of them would be moved up. But some children, who had been in the Kinder and failed the qualifying, were sent to the Burgh!! Which was very disturbing.

VW: Quite a demotion!

AM: It was absolutely dreadful! And I think there was one case, and I'm not going to mention who it is, but I name one case how wrong that is. You know that you shouldn’t be judging children at eleven when the learning stages are quite different. And this particular child was sent, this particular boy, was sent, demoted, demoted to the Burgh and he was there for about two years, and they realised they had made a terrible gaff because he was really a very bright boy and he was sent back up to Madras in his third year. And he went on to do a PhD. That was a very good pointer as to how wrong they had been, that system was. And it was quite good, in that I have to say though there is the other side of the coin in that I think children who would benefit enormously and enjoy enormously a technical education . Of course there is the other side of the coin in that I think children who would benefit enormously, and enjoy enormously, a technical education, are being denied that and I think that’s wrong as well. I think the technical, the lesser scientific etc. that side, is no longer being catered for. And I think that is bad, I do really. Because we are not meeting the needs of every pupil at all.

VW: So, what about as you got further on in the school, examinations, what did you do then?

AM: Yes, Examinations, well, you had examinations every year. Oh, by the way in the primary you had report cards, which your parents had to sign [Laughs] to prove that they had seen it, to prove that they had read it. And I was looking at mine, as I said, the other day, I mean very, very formal and they had comments by the teacher, whichever class you were in. That was fine, it might say things like "should do better" or something "doesn't pay attention" - I'm not talking about myself, but about comments that would be put in. So that was interesting and of course that becomes a very personalised thing, because if the school teacher didn't like you, which would be sometimes the case, then I'm quite sure some of the comments wouldn't be all that positive.  I was always lucky, I was always lucky. I must have been a sook, I think. But no, it was great fun. But the secondary school again, examinations on the subjects, each subject had examinations. The other interesting thing is when it came to what we did in the final examinations, we did Lowers and Highers. I don't know what they call them now. That was the set up.

VW: What years did you do that in?

AM: The Lowers you did in fourth year and the Highers you did in fifth year. And then, if you wanted to add on, you could do some in sixth year but you were supposed to do them all in a mass.  And then, the results, the results were read out in the assembly hall! [Laughing] Now that was frightful!! You know, I mean, everybody…and the assembly hall in those days was above in the Quad, it is a library now or something? But anyway, we had to stand up there and our results were read out! And, I mean, some people got really quite upset!

VW: It must have taken ages.

AM: It did, it did! And then the other thing too was they had concerts up there, the hall had happier memories. That was the gym, when we were in the primary that was where we went for gym. Also, as I said before, we knew the secondary school, the 'big school' as we called it, very well because we had quite a lot of movement between the two buildings. So we were familiar with the building, so we were happy to move in. But the qualifying actually, when I think about it now, quite a lot of pressure was put on quite a lot of children by their parents on that one because, quite an anxious time I should imagine when parents thought ‘Well, if they are not going to get into Madras, you know, what else if going to happen?’

VW: What time of year would you have sat that, do you remember?

AM: It must have been in the June because it was looking towards going back. It was May I think, May. I quite liked it. You had an English paper and a Maths paper, there were two papers. It was good fun. I quite liked putting my head down and getting on with work, it was quite interesting. The exams again were that sort of mass ... oh, the other thing we had to all get together was when we were having our inoculations where there was one which was quite a big one, for TB I think it was, and we had to queue up. This was, this must have been in our second or third year because it was held down in the gym, the new gym which was in the new building and we had to queue up to have these inoculations. The boys were queuing up separately and they were all fainting and they hadn't had it! [Laughter]. And we were, the girls were all kind of, "What on earth ...". Because they were watching, you were in a row and you actually saw the doctor giving the injections and of course I think it was the sight of this huge needle that sent the boys haywire.

And it was all, and down in another interesting thing about staff, I had studied the cello for a while very badly, and the chap who taught me the cello was a chap called John Fletcher. Now he was from the West Indies but his mother had been from St Andrews and his father was from the West Indies, Grenada I think, was that the West Indies? I actually was nearly going to visit him when we had a Soroptomists conference over there, because he lived down in St Mary's Street and he was the church organist, he was fully trained as the organist and he taught us the cello but he really eventually said to me, "You know, I don't think you've mastered it".

VW: You don't have a talent for that.

AM: "You don't have the talent"! [Laughing]. But he was quite a well known organist latterly. He went back to the West Indies but he taught at Madras for about five years, I think, five or six years.  John Fletcher, a very nice chap.

VW: You also did music. Was that as an extra curricular activity or just part of your school life?

AM: Yes, no, you could do the cello as an extra curricular as well, there was the opportunity for that. And then, of course, some sort of extra-curricular – the debating society, drama society, all of these things were outwith school hours, but then they provided some kind of concert or whatever at the end of it. But they were also good fun! And I liked the debating society particularly and so all of these things were great!!

VW: Hmm

AM: And then of course extra curricular, nothing to do with the school, we would go to the Guides, I'm jumping back to the primary, my mother decided that perhaps I would like to go to dancing. I don't know why, I think it was because Dorothy Murray was going to dancing, In fact I don't think my mother thought it was particularly useful but Dorothy Murray was going and so I wanted to go. It was held in the hall which was opposite the old Picture House which someone just had a photograph up the other day, but anyhow in we trotted and we were to do this concert. We did tap dancing and some kind of, not ballet but free style dancing and all this kind of thing. So there was to be the concert. And so Mrs Murray, Dorothy Murray's mother, who's very prudent lady, and she was sitting next to my mother, and my mother got a fit of the giggles because I was galumphing, as she put it, across the stage. They were watching the stage and then she would give herself more giggles. So she started to say something, much to Mrs Murray's disgust, because Dorothy was dancing beautifully. And here's my mother giggling away at my efforts. So I didn't last long at the dancing. No, no, I didn't particularly like it anyway. It looked a bit too twee for me really. I was never particularly twee. No, that was fun. It was good to participate in all these things though. Guides, I loved Guides because we could go away to Guide camps and that sort of thing. And it was lovely, it was really lovely. And then I used to enjoy, out of school activities, I used to go with my parents, we used to go on holiday before my brother was born, we used to go up to my great-grandmother’s which was, she had a house up Rheindown, it was called, which was  where my mother had been born, up in north of Beauly. And it was absolutely lovely!!  We used to love that, we had great holidays up there!

VW: That’s Beauly, up on the Black Isle?

AM: Yes. And so then, every Christmas, my great-grandmother used to send down a basket, you know, a hamper, with chickens in it down for our Christmas meal. Now chicken in those days was quite rare, you know that was something special. Never mind a roast, you could have roast any day of the week but a chicken, that was quite good. And so she would send these couple of chickens. One holiday we had been up there and I had got terribly fond of one of the hens which I called 'Punchy'. And Punchy followed me everywhere and she used to send letters you see in the hamper and then these were read out at the table at Christmas Day. And unfortunately my mother didn't read the letter before the meal and my great-grandmother said "And Anne will want to know that one of the chickens this year is Punchy"! Well, I burst into tears [Laughs] and you know, it put me off chicken for years. Isn't that strange, I mean because, my great-grandmother, she would wring chicken's necks in front of me, she would cut chickens, so to her it was almost quite nice that I would be getting the chicken I liked [Laughs].

VW: So if everybody had hens as people did and had eggs why was having, eating chickens be so rare?

AM: I don't know, I have no idea.

VW: You just kept your hens for eggs?

AM: The eggs were fine but the chickens, it wasn't something that was thought of as it was just seen as a special sort of dish for some reason. Isn't that strange?

VW: Ah ha.

AM: You would have duck, by the way. You would have venison. You would have all this, but chicken seemed to be some kind of treat! [Laughing] Isn’t it funny?!  I'd never thought of that because you've got, as you said you'd got eggs, grandmother was on a farm they'd got chicken for the pot any day of the week. It was almost like a, my other grandmother used to send black bun and that was for New Year though. That was another thing, there was a lot of postal things went on and things came by train because we had a station, St Andrews had a station and the Porter would bring something down that had been delivered, a hamper or something. That's how we would get the hamper from Beauly. And it would come down the same day. We would get it from the train, it was phenomenal really. And all of that kind of postal service, and packaging and delivery service, we had butcher boys now all these kind of things with their bikes with their baskets at the front. That's all gone. Supermarkets changed everything, changed absolutely everything.  It was quite different.

VW: And you mentioned going on holiday. Were there any school trips?

AM: Yes, I can't remember anything, did we go anywhere in the primary but certainly secondary, yes there were lots of school trips and also weeks, study weeks and all this kind of thing, Garth and I can't remember the other place names and they were great fun. There would be the nature study one, the biology one, that was near, not Schiehallion? I can't remember but that was quite good. And then there was the art and craft one, that's where you could study art or science or whatever. Not science, art, the science one was Garth. But they had, it was good fun, it was good fun and you could go away, and then of course there was the trips abroad, that came in my brother's time. There were the boats, the big cruise liners took school children to Russia.

VW: Oh, my goodness.

AM: Yes, and all this kind of thing. But that was my brother's era, not my era. And staff loved that because of course they got a free trip [Laughs].

VW: Actually I was just going to ask, did you see any difference between the staff, their nature and how they behaved. Because you said that staff were very formal at school and when they went on a trip with you, were they still just as formal?

AM: No, no they weren't and that was the interesting thing although that was in a way something that I don't think schoolchildren could get their head round. Somehow because I remember Ian Hendry falling asleep and his head coming down to my shoulder in the train going to Kiel and I was mortified, I was absolutely mortified. That he was a schoolmaster, you know - mmm - and I remember shifting along and all this kind of thing. The poor man was exhausted looking after all of us, I mean Stuart Hutt was creeping past him, with a beer can and all this. It was a very old train, with the corridors. But that sort of thing, schoolteachers when I was young in my mind remain schoolteachers in your mind. And so even if they tried to be more relaxed with you it was almost an impossibility. The only one, Margaret MacLees's father, I knew very well, so because Margaret was one of my best friends and so I could see him in a relaxed version but people like Hendry always just saw them as the role was as a schoolteacher.

VW: In what way were they formal in school?

AM: Well they would be just, well they wore gowns for a start. And they actually, their manner of speech etc. would be quite...

VW: And also discipline, you must have been disciplined?

AM: And disciplined, that's right, we were disciplined very strictly and I know you weren't allowed to just sort of answer back, you certainly wouldn't answer back. You would only answer when spoken to and all this kind of stuff.

VW: And would you stand up when any teacher came in or was it just the Rector you stood up for?

AM: I'm trying to remember. In the primary I think we stood up for any teacher, in the secondary in S1 I think we stood up until they came in. I think we did, yes you're just making me remember that. Yes, in the first year you would stand up until the teacher was actually in the room. And then you would sit down. And so there was quite a, there was a discipline there. And they expected you to respect them. That was obvious, that was very obvious. And so that certainly you could, a pupil could be sent to the Rector for what nowadays would be seen as minor misdemeanours.

VW: And that really meant something, it had an impact if you were sent to the Rector?

AM: Oh yes, absolutely. Oh, good heavens yes. And there was also, it was not just the Rector, there was a Dean of women or a woman supervisor or something and that was Miss Rain and she, nowadays, should be known as a Depute Rector and in fact probably nowadays she herself would be a Rector but in those days she wasn’t, and she was the one who disciplined the girls. So you were sent to Miss Rain. Or Miss Rain would seek you out, there was the case of me not wearing the right socks. [Laughs]. It was quite ..., but then you see I don't know that there is anything particularly disturbing about having a certain degree of discipline within the classroom.

VW: No, not at all.

AM: I think it gives an atmosphere of learning, I mean people can sit quietly and learn and all this kind of thing. And it also gives you, I’ve always maintained that children like boundaries because, if nothing else, it is sometimes nice to go over those boundaries, but at least you've got these burdens and it makes a sense of learning. And after all, why were we at school? It's preparing you for your adult life. And again the adult life has to have some sort of discipline in it. I feel that schools have a great responsibility and I think, unfortunately, that responsibility has been taken away from them. And so society's ills now are dependant on I don't know what? But it’s very, very difficult because nowadays adults within the education system have absolutely no way of setting boundaries.

VW: And in what way did you think that your school, Madras in particular, prepared you for adult life?

AM: Well I think again because it did actually encourage us to think for ourselves. I'm talking about the debating society etc., so you had to, they did expect you to manage the information you were being given and they would question you on that. There was quite a lot of recalling what they had taught you, I mean that was good. At the end of whatever, where you were sitting listening then there would be a time to discuss that and have discourse and asking questions of the pupils and giving your answers, all this kind of thing. So it made you handle information I thought very well. And that was a feature of the, and most of the staff did that. Most of the staff, almost the whole of their periods were in that distinct way, you were given information, you were perhaps taught a new skill, a new mathematical thing or something, and then that was tested in some way. Now that's always very good. Things like the English, there was a base encouragement to read and enquire into things, why was such and such, to break down, to analyse what you were reading and all this kind of thing. I think that's important and I don't think that went on in every school. But I think it came from the ethos of the staff. I mean, presumably, the Rector etc., during their staff meetings, they must have had quite a lot of, training themselves, you know, sort of staff development meetings etc. and certainly the one that came there was there was an ethos of encouraging learning and pupils participating in their learning, which, I think, is important.

VW: Ok. Is there anything else you want to say about school?

AM: Well we've talked about the bun van and walking round the Quad. And what else now? And then moving to the new building, of course that was in our second year.

VW: Because Madras was just single site, it was all South Street wasn't it? It hadn't moved up to Kilrymont.

AM: That's right, it was just South Street and there wasn't the bit at the back of South Street. There wasn't the extension at that time. There were a couple of huts at the back. There was the Cookery hut, Domestic Science, and Technical. They were at the back, they were sort of huts down the side. And then there was a big garden at the back, part of it was the Janitor's. The Janitor and the Rector had gardens, vegetable gardens at the back there. And then of course they built the extension, that was two stories and so there's the two staff rooms and you went down, was it three stories? No, two stories and you went down, there was the gym and then Geography and all the classes along there, Science at the top. That was as I said in our second year and you went through the doors and it had a plaque that said 'The Old Order Changeth'. And that was Dawson, our Art teacher, had carved this plaque of Andrew Bell with school children round about him. And people didn't realise it was a copy of the carving on his tomb in the Westminster Abbey. A lot of people didn't realise that, they thought that Dawson had designed this wonderful thing but in fact it’s a complete copy. And then there was the school badge.

Oh, there were quite a lot of school rules by the way as well. Things like you don't run in the corridors and they had to sort of be adhered to. Not as bad as the school rules from the late 1900s, 1800s where they were not allowed to take firearms in [Laughs]! And it is quite different. Yes, we had a super time really and I think probably what helped was that the staff enjoyed teaching at Madras. I think they saw that as quite a prestigious post. And so that always helps, doesn't it? And I think that they themselves probably were well chosen.

VW: Hmm.

AM: You know, I think there was a sort of, screening for the teachers who went to Madras, if I was being absolutely honest, you know! I mean, we, sort of, had the best of the best, kind of thing!!

VW: And do you think nowadays, looking back and talking to your friends who went to Madras, that most of you do remember it fondly? That Madras was important in your life later on?

AM: I think so. It's interesting that you should say that because yes, I would have said that most of the people I have ever spoken to, that's it. And our FP girls and all this kind of thing. However there was one friend, a friend of Irene's as well, and we were trying to get her to join the FP Girls and she said "I've no desire to join the FP Girls" she said, “Madras did nothing for me” and she said "So I've no desire to do anything". Now there was one person and you know what, that really proved the opposite and I thought "What!", that was so strange. Then, as my father would always say, that tells you more about her than about the school.

VW: Hmm

AM: But it was strange. So there was someone who didn't like it but everybody went on to have good careers, good lives, happy lives, made these friendships which they've kept all their life. Some people married from school, they married their childhood sweethearts and they still remain married. So that really it was, along with a happy, I had a very happy home life, and as I said my brother is ten years younger, so I was thrilled when I suddenly at ten had a young brother in the house. So I just had a happy, secure home life, you know family life, a loving family life, parents that wanted me to do my own thing but at the same time learn as much as I could, from the school, from the schooling. It was good. And then  I was just thinking the other day, everybody quotes this but, if you combine the town, living in the town and all the activities out of the town, Guides and all this kind of thing, if you combine that with the very happy childhood, then it's made St Andrews,  it’s drawn me back.  And so, that poem by Andrew Lang suddenly has a meaning, you know?! ‘St. Andrews by the Northern Sea, A haunted town it is to me’! And we learned that at school, in the primary, and it’s lived with me forever. And I think that sums it up.

VW: Ok, well thank you very much, do you think that everything you wanted to discuss?

AM: I think so, we've talked about the storms and things which could be quite fearsome at times, my early life now. All the activities outwith school and in school and the friendships that you made. I'll tell you the other thing it taught us all was to be polite to each other, to sort of be compassionate and to be polite because of course there were quite a lot of children who came from different backgrounds who maybe had some difficulties in life etc., but we were all together. We worked together, we lived together and we played together and you got to know everyone and you were compassionate if you like. I feel that was another aspect of the school which was of benefit to us in later life really. On the Founder's Day there's another lovely story I have about that. I think as children our respect for adults and sort of adults were a different breed. You were talking about what did we think of teachers if they were outwith school. Adults were something different. I mean, for instance, you called all your schoolmates’ parents by their Mr and Mrs, or Dr and Mrs or whatever, you didn't say their first name which I think they do now but I mean it was a very formal approach, and you would have been appalled to think that "just call me Mary". No, no, no, no - that was not done!

Things like the Town Council, they were known. There were quite a lot of eccentrics in the town at the time. And yet they added to the flavour. There was Founder's Day, we used to have Founder's Day services, I meant to mention that, along at the Holy Trinity. And we used to have to wear our berets in those days. And along you went, along you trotted and then one of the Bailies, or one of the Town Council would give an address at the Founder's Day and at this particular time, it was I think his name was Bailie Fraser, and he had huge, he wore tweed suits, but he had huge snuff, he took snuff, and he took snuff ..., and he had this big snuff handkerchief and he sort of sneezed into it! And it all went down the front of his tweeds, it was unbelievable! [Laughs]. I mean these are the kinds of things, I mean you've got these memories, it's like something out of Dickens or something.

VW: Stick in your mind, yes.

AM: You know they stick in your mind, yes. So that was a Founder's Day event. I really think these were ... Oh I mean I could go on and on and on it would just be ... it's really each of them is a story in itself.

VW: Ok, we will draw that to a close then so if you're happy with that, thank you very much.

AM: Yes, Thank you.

(End of Recording)